Causality: Time & the Quantum Vacuum
From my experience atheists and agnostics are starting to use the two contentions below at a higher frequency and are popularising them. Hence, I felt the need to provide structured written responses. If you can think of anything else to add please let me know.
1. "You cannot apply causality to the universe. Because causality presupposes time, and since the universe is all of time, the universe cannot have a cause. In other words, causality doesn't make sense outside of time; therefore you cannot ask what caused the universe. The question becomes meaningless."
The problem with this contention is that it assumes that causality presupposes time. There is no philosophical justification that causality only makes sense within time. In actual fact, there is no consensus amongst philosophers on what causality is, so in absence of a consensus the basic definition will suffice, and the basic definition is “something which produces an effect”. If you notice with this definition, time is not pre-requisite in understanding causality.
Additionally, there is a concept called “simultaneous, asymmetric causation” which means that something can be causally prior but not temporally prior (before in time) to the effect. A useful example to illustrate this is by way of a thought experiment. The philosopher Emmanuel Kant gave the example of a heavy ball resting on a pillow causing a depression in the pillow, now the ball and the pillow could have existed from eternity past so that the ball was always resting on the pillow. However, the depression in the pillow is obviously caused by the ball resting on it, it is not the other way round, meaning that the roundness of the ball is not caused by the depression in the pillow. In this example the ball is not temporally prior to the depression in the pillow but causally prior, in other words they are simultaneous with each other, which highlights how a cause doesn't have to exist temporally prior to its effect. Therefore, it is not impossible or incoherent to argue that you can have something that is timeless and related to its effect timelessly. There is no reason why the cause and effect cannot exist at the same time in an asymmetric dependency relation, like a boxing bag hanging on a chain from the ceiling, the ceiling and chain hold up the boxing bag and it is not the boxing bag and chain that support the ceiling.
Even if this contention carries some weight the following questions still remain: how could the universe come into existence with no causal conditions whatsoever? Why did the universe begin to exist at all? To claim the universe began to exist without a cause would be truly absurd. The questioner may respond by saying "Well, what caused the cause of the universe?" and if they do they will be admitting what they first denied, that causality makes sense outside of time!
Putting rhetoric aside a simple response to the question "what caused the cause of the universe?" would be to respond by saying "nothing, it is necessarily uncaused". The main reason for this is that if we say there is a cause for the cause of the universe, then what stops us from continuing this ad infinitum? If the causes went back forever there wouldn't be a universe to talk about in the first place! For example, if I was a soldier with a gun and I wanted to shoot an enemy would I ever shoot if I had to ask the soldier behind me for his permission, and they then had to ask permission from someone behind them to, and this went on forever? No. I would never shoot. This is the same for the cause of the universe, therefore it has to be uncaused.
To simplify a response to this contention, you can argue that time only allows us to recognise that effects are a result of prior causes and not necessarily a result of time itself.
2. "There are many sub-atomic events in the quantum vacuum that do not correspond with causality, therefore it is possible that nothing caused the universe. It could have been spontaneous creation, an idea Stephen Hawking has propagated. Therefore, it is unlikely that God exists."
Some physicists claim that there are many sub-atomic events that do not correspond with causality. They claim that sub-atomic particles behave unpredictably and spontaneously in the quantum vacuum. So they conclude that things that begin to exist do not have to have a cause, or that things can come from nothing.
Firstly this contention is misleading as the quantum vacuum is not nothing, rather it is a sea of fluctuating energy, it has a rich structure and it obeys the laws of the universe. So it is something. Also, the view that sub-atomic events do not correspond with causality is not entirely true. There are many physicists that are adopting a deterministic view - meaning that these events have prior causes in the quantum vacuum - for instance the David Bohm interpretation being one of them.
Secondly, spontaneous sub-atomic events either mean that the causes are hidden to us, or there is a complete absence of causes. The position that some events “just happen” for no reason at all is impossible to prove, for our inability to identify a cause does not necessarily mean that there is no cause.
Finally, from a philosophical perspective it is extremely difficult for these physicists to justify their conclusions. This is because without the concept of causality we will not have the mental framework to understand our observations and experiences. In philosophical terms causality is a priori, which means knowledge we have independent of any experience. We know causality is true because we bring it to all our experience, rather than our experience bringing it to us. It is like wearing yellow-tinted glasses, everything looks yellow not because of anything out there in the world, but because of the glasses through which we are looking at everything. Take the following example into consideration; imagine you are looking at the White House in Washington DC. Your eyes may wonder to the door, across the pillars, then to the roof and finally over to the front lawn. Now contrast this to another experience, you are on the river Thames in London and you see a boat floating past. What dictates the order in which you had these experiences? When you looked at the White House you had a choice to see the door first and then the pillars and so on. However, with the boat you had no choice as the front of the boat was the first to appear.
The point to take here is that you would not have been able to make the distinction that some experiences are ordered by yourself and others are ordered independently, unless we had the concept of causality. In absence of causality our experience would be very different from the way it is. It would be a single sequence of experiences only: one thing after another. So to accept that sub-atomic events do not correspond with causality would be tantamount of denying our own experience!
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22 comments:
Awesome! This subject came up recently as I was discussing it with an atheist.
Jazaak Allahu kheyran akhi Hamza,
Ahmad
Just a thought , science describes about Quantum vacuum or string theory, black energy,black matter or neutrinos as a unseen entities or only mathematically provable laws... similarly Quran also asking us to believe in unseen God.
As you have mentioned our thinking framework won't allow us to logically conclude that all the things emerged from nothing.There unseen things which make sense for science and also for the religion (Islam).
In Quran most of the recent advances in science are already mentioned in some or the other way. I therefore inclined to believe Allah exists and He will as stated remain unseen, so is most of the scientific hypothesizes.
Also opposing things such as positive / negative, south/ north poles of magnets, electron/proton, etc..are scientific way of explaining stuff, similarly religion describes heaven /hell, good deed /bad deed, this life / after life etc.
Science say there was no yesterday on the day "Big bang" happened similarly Quran claims that something just happens , Adam (PBUH) didn't have childhood he was created as an adult or companions until Eve was created.( At least with my limited knowledge).
So for me science remains in its infancy and will continue to plaugh in that infancy for infinity.Even the LHC with billions of pounds invested wont help to arrive in any logical conclusion than feeding so-many self declared intellectuals.
Nice !
The example of the pillow you give is utterly wrong. It seems like the pillow and the arm are simultaneous because the amount of time for the pillow to react is too quick for your eye to notice. But the pillow indentation is caused by the arms movement. This is simply Newtons 3rd law, every reaction has an equal but opposite reaction. Are you implying Newtons laws don't apply to pillows?
I suggest learning some basic physics before going onto the quantum stuff
Very interesting article. Can you provide any references in the scientific literature which provide observed instances of simultaneous causation?
Asalam o alaykum, this is amazing reading, a must read for the atheists, please continue this work, may Allah bless your efforts.
Please provide me with an answer, how do we convince the atheists that Jinn exists?
Another short, sharp and precise writing. May Allah bless you brother. Keep on doing dakwah. It inspires us to do the same ;-)
Ibnu Hanaffi
Malaysia
Thank you for your wisdom brother
Dear Anonymous (21 May 2011),
I think you have misconstrued the example here. The arm is already touching the pillow, there is already a connection. Then you move the arm. So it is instantaneous, once the arm moves further into the pillow the indentation also occurs at the same time. Let me know if you require further clarification.
Brother Hamza can we actually say that “time”, space and matter were created in the big bang? How about the Hadith where the Prophet (p.b.u.h) said: "Do not curse time, for verily, time is Allah ."
Just wanted to know your thought on this……..
As Salam Alaikum Hamza,
I guess Anonymous (21 May 2011 13:10) is right although he didn't explain it in detail. The pillow example is not right.
There are several levels of explanation for this. The simplest picture of this can be understood using the classical physics. When we say two objects are touching each other, they are not actually touching each other. The perceived
contact between two objects is really a point of equilibrium between the electrostatic repulsion between the electron clouds of the surface molecules of both the objects. In fact there is nothing like absolute contact !!! (to bring into contact two free electrons or two free protons you would need infinite energy !!)
Now when you push your hand into the pillow the surface electrons get closer to each other causing an increase in the repulsive force. Since the coefficient of elasticity is different for pillow and hand, one object gets more deformed than the other (I don't have exact numerical values for these). The intermolecular bonds in the pillow molecules act like
springs (they are not springs really, just a modeling) push the other pillow molecules behind further causing the indentation in the pillow. All these steps do not happen simultaneously in time but rather sequential in time. This can
be understood by going beyond the classical physics.
There are two theories of modern physics which throws light on this. The first is the special theory of relativity which
puts an upper limit on the speed of propagation of any interaction. No interaction can travel faster than the speed of light in vacuum (denoted as 'c'). In the above case also the electromagnetic force between the surface electrons
of the two bodies do not travel faster than 'c'. Hence, there is a time lapse between the movement of the hand and the indentation of the pillow. Since the distances involved are very very less and electromagnetic force
propagates at 'c', it is not noticeable to the human eye.
The other theory explains why the electromagnetic interaction is not simultaneous i.e. it can't travel at infinite velocity. And why the electromagnetic interaction travels at 'c'. This is the theory of Quantum Electrodynamics (QED) which explains electromagnetic interaction as the exchange of photons (a boson) between the two charges. Since photons travel at 'c', the speed of electromagnetic interaction is limited to 'c'. The QED has been extended by the Standard Model to include other fundamental interactions such as weak and strong nuclear forces. All these forces are manifested
using the exchange of special types of bosons between the corresponding fundamental particles.
A course of Theory of Relativity and Quantum Physics would make things clearer.
Please let me know if I need to clarify it further.
Zeeshan
bro, i am another anonymous asking:
we can also say that the time between the cause and effect is so little that we perceive it to be instantaneous. but in reality the cause does occur before effect in time.
that doesn't mean i am saying that there is no cause before the universe. there must be a cause. and this argument is rational which not necessarily argues within the physical world alone. by greater reason, we need a source from everything has to emanate.
and we do not know what was there before universe. there might be another form of time. we can suppose many things as this is the realm of conjecture.
please give your view.
jzk
Some of you have raised very interesting points concerning causality and physics. I will amend the example to hopefully positively respond to these interesting contentions.
Here is the change that I made to the relevant paragraph:
"Additionally, there is a concept called 'simultaneous, asymmetric causation' which means that something can be causally prior but not temporally prior (before in time) to the effect. A useful example to illustrate this is by way of a thought experiment. The philosopher Emmanuel Kant gave the example of a heavy ball resting on a pillow causing a depression in the pillow, now the ball and the pillow could have existed from eternity past so that the ball was always resting on the pillow. However, the depression in the pillow is obviously caused by the ball resting on it, it is not the other way round, meaning that the roundness of the ball is not caused by the depression in the pillow. In this example the ball is not temporally prior to the depression in the pillow but causally prior, in other words they are simultaneous with each other, which highlights how a cause doesn't have to exist temporally prior to its effect. Therefore, it is not impossible or incoherent to argue that you can have something that is timeless and related to its effect timelessly. There is no reason why the cause and effect cannot exist at the same time in an asymmetric dependency relation, like a boxing bag hanging on a chain from the ceiling, the ceiling and chain hold up the boxing bag and it is not the boxing bag and chain that support the ceiling."
Give me your thoughts please.
To Anonymous (23 MAY 2011 19:45) referring to the prophetic tradition that states "...God is time".
See below:
The meaning of the phrase “for Allaah (God) is time” means that He is the One Who causes those events and accidents to happen, and He is the Creator of all that happens. And Allaah knows best.
It should be noted that “time” (al-dahr) is not one of the Names of Allaah; it is attributed to Allaah in the sense that He created it and is controlling it, i.e., He is the Creator of time. Some phrases in the same hadeeth also indicate this, as when He says, “It is in My Hand, I alternate the night and the day.” The One Who alternates and the thing which is alternated cannot be one and the same; there is the One Who alternates – i.e., Allaah – and the thing which is alternated – i.e., time, which Allaah controls as and when He wills.
See more here: http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/9571
Atheists say that in Quantum Physics there are processes/events which have no cause and they would give examples such as the appearance of virtual particles from a vacuum or the spontaneous emission of photons from atoms and tiny forces called Casimir forces between metal plates in a vacuum.All these events are not uncaused,they are caused due to the zero point energy of empty space.So their argument that there are "empirical evidence" of events which have no cause is completely false.I hope this information will be useful to you while debating the atheists.
Absurd and incomprehensible are not the same thing. For instance, the structure of a space-shuttle may be incomprehensible for us, but we cannot deny its existence. The number 5 cannot be higher than the number 10; that is absurd. As the contrary is absurd (that the eternal chain of causes has led to this point), the existence of a first cause is a necessity (although there are those who contend that this argument is “beyond comprehension”).
Your revised example assumes "now the ball and the pillow could have existed from eternity past so that the ball was always resting on the pillow. " but if this is the case then the Kalam arguemtn fails as it assumes there is eternaity past. i think you should try another revision.
Chopsticks: No it doesn't. The thought experiment shows that from a conceptual perspective we can have an asymmetric causation or dependency. The Kalam argument doesn't reject eternality all together. It just claims the infinite cannot be exported into the real material world. Outside of this world the infinite may not lead to absurdities. Also, there is a rational necessity to postulate an eternal cause due to the fact that an infinite regress of causes would mean there is no universe in the first place. Since we have the universe in existence it follows it must have been caused by an uncaused cause.
So not sure I understand the final conclusion here, so in reality,is simultaneous, asymmetric causation possible? I think not...
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