
This leads nicely to introduce, more formally, Professor Simon Blackburn. But before I do, I would like to add that he was very polite, courteous, and he never made me feel out of place. Professor Blackburn is one of the leading academics in Britain; he is a Professor of Philosophy at Cambridge University and is the vice-chair of the British Humanist Association. He has written many books and he is the former editor of the journal Mind. In light of this and his other academic achievements I approached Professor Blackburn just before the debate and thanked him for agreeing to participate in the discussion. I told him that I would bring no surprises to the table as I would be presenting a contemporary form of the cosmological argument, the teleological argument and the inimitability of the Qur’an.
After I delivered my arguments within the allocated twenty minutes, the Professor decided to include his rebuttal time in his main presentation. As a result he brought to light various contentions to my arguments, his main contentions included:
1. Causality doesn’t make sense outside of time
2. ‘Who designed the designer?’ & the flawed analogy of design
3. The explanatory power of the designer is weak
Causality doesn’t make sense outside of time
The Professor exclaimed that to posit a cause outside of the universe, and therefore outside of time, doesn’t make sense. However I argued that God's act of creation can act as a simultaneous asymmetric type of cause, which is not temporally, but causally prior to the moment of creation. His act of creation is thus simultaneous with the creation of the universe. So the universe is an effect produced by a cause in time, in other words the act of creation enters time and causes the universe to come into existence at the same moment, and there are no good philosophical reasons why this can’t be true.
I ended my response by concluding that there is no Philosophical consensus on the definition of causality (not to mention time itself!). Therefore, in the absence of a consensus the most basic definition should be used, and this definition doesn’t include time as a necessary factor. The basic definition is “something which produces an effect”.
Who designed the designer & the flawed analogy of design
The Professor’s next contention was the fact that even if we can conclude there must have been a designer for the fine-tuning that is apparent in the universe, this doesn’t stop us from asking “who designed the designer?”, in other words there can be a meta-metaphysical designer, and a meta-meta-metaphysical designer and so on. He continued that the design argument is a weak argument as it is a flawed analogy of design, this is because you can’t make an analogy with something that is apparently immaterial and outside of the universe, unless of course you have deeply help anthropomorphic views – something considered blasphemous in the Islamic tradition.
I responded to this contention in two ways, firstly I agreed with the Professor that if the design argument was an analogy it would indeed be a weak. However I continued by saying that the argument is much more than an argument from analogy, it is an inference to the best explanation, as Elliott Sober writes in response to David Hume’s contentions, which have obviously been mirrored by Professor Blackburn:
“Hume did not think of the design argument [as an inference to the best explanation]. For him… it [was] an argument from analogy, or an inductive argument. This alternate conception of the argument makes a great deal of difference. Hume’s criticisms are quite powerful if the argument has the character he attributes to it. But if the argument is, as I maintain, an inference to the best explanation, Hume’s criticisms entirely lose their bite.”
Secondly I argued that in the Philosophy of science the best explanation doesn’t require an explanation. Anyone with a basic understanding of the philosophy of science will conclude that in the inference to the best explanation, the best explanation doesn’t require an explanation! I used an example similar to the one that follows to illustrate this point.
Imagine 500 years from now a group of futuristic archaeologists were to start digging in on the moon only to find parts of a car and a bus. They would be completely justified in inferring that these finds were products of an unknown civilisation. However if some Richard Dawkins IV were to argue that we can’t make such inferences because we do not know anything about this civilization, how they lived and who created them, would that make the archaeologists conclusions untrue? Of course not!
Additionally I concluded this response by saying that even if we were to apply this type of question to every attempt at explaining the explanation, we would end up with an infinite regress of explanations. And an infinite regress of explanations would defeat the whole purpose of science in the first place, which is to provide an explanation!
The explanatory power of the designer is weak
Another one of the Professor’s main contentions included that the designer for the whole universe must be more complex than the universe, therefore the explanatory power of the designer is weak, and in other words it fails as an explanation.
I responded by saying that the supernatural designer, in other words God, is one of the most simple concepts understood by all, something the once atheist now turned theist Professor Anthony Flew testifies too. I argued that just because God can do complex things doesn’t make him complex. The Professor, like Richard Dawkins in his book ‘The God Delusion’, confused ability with nature, just because God can do complex things, such as creating the universe, it doesn’t make His nature complex. I clarified this further during the question and answer session by adding that we humans can design things which are more complex then ourselves, computers being one of them.
To conclude this note, what I found particularly interesting is that once I responded to the Professor’s main contentions there was a shift in the debate. The Professor started to focus more on issues related to sociology and not philosophy! In other words he argued that he didn’t really care about the truth claims of religion as long as what they teach is useful and morally in tune with the humanistic values he upholds. This I believe was an interesting change of discussion and a typical strategic move often made by atheists who run out of philosophical arguments, not to mention that it obviously had nothing to do with the nature of the question. What I think Professor Blackburn did do successfully is refute my main initial assumption, which was that in thinking he was a Humean, he would facilitate a more nuanced discussion!
Rhetoric aside, I sincerely believe that the Professor made me think harder about God’s nature, and how it is virtually impossible (although there are somethings we can know) to know who this God is, in absence for revelation. The Professor made an interesting argument that echoes Hume’s stance on this issue, he highlighted that if this God is immaterial, transcendent, and unlike anything we can conceive then we can never know who this God is or what He intends for humanity. I agree, and the Qur’an reflects this reality as it mentions “You have no authority for this. How dare you say things about God without any knowledge?” It is like we know there is a knocking on door, we are not expecting anyone so we cannot speculate who is behind the door, the thing behind the door has to tell us. This is the most rational position to take, and this position takes us to another discussion: revelation and Prophethood. Maybe the next debate, inshAllah, God willing.
20 comments:
mashaAllah great article, your views just reinforced the argument i read recently by Mufti Taqi Usmani, that we have 3 sources of knowledge: senses, intellect and revelation.
At some point in time for a given topic our brain will hit a dead-end, God being a prime example, and this is where revelation comes in.
It is essential for us to overcome our egoistic nature and understand this!
keep up the good work brother may Allah reward you.
mashallah i picked up nice counter-arguement to points
jazakalah
As-Salaamu Alaykum,
Thank you for this interesting article. May Allah be pleased with you.
I'd like to state that there are, in fact, some things that we can know about our creator, based upon what we can observe from the nature of this creation.
This is also something which Ibnul-Qayyim, every atheist-philosophers nightmare, writes about.
Do you agree with this?
"Wa-Salaam" (as we muslims in the west say!)
Asalamu Alaikum
Do these debates with intellectuals resolve anything? Subhanallah I didn't need to go into such in depth analysis before following Islam. The basics were enough. Did not Allah (swt) prove his wonder of creation in the Qur'an and can't we look at the perfect system of our Human chemistry and genetic makeup to realise that their was a creator? How could this all be a coincedence or a natural evolution?
All praises are for Allah, the Creator of the heavens and the earth and all that is in it.
Masha Allah! Nicely said brother.
Kais you have a good point but this debate has given you the chance to voice your opinion which I consider very strong. Similarly, Hamza's initiatve may help others to voice their opinions as well as helps others to get convinced and/or prove the respect Quran shows for genuine inquiry besides calrifying some concepts in the mind of others.
If we take complexity as distinct from simplicity indeed man is much more comple than computer. Similary, if we reflect on somewhat 99 attributes of God (that we know as a result of REVELATION), God is a Unique with out any comparsion with the known things, is indeed complex. Let's take the example of infinity for whose absolute knowledge only God knows.
If we look from another perspective as in words of Picasso "simplicity is the ultiamte sophistication". The artist's good work of art or a philosophers good arguments are result of understanding the whole compelx of a particular field/subject and presnting in the simple form.
Some thoughts....
Peace & Blessings
mashallah!
Good artikel!
I hope you soon post some of your debates!
MashAllah very versed. May Allah grant us Knowledge and wisdom or better yet (Hidaya).
Assalaamu 'Alaikum wa Rahmatullaahi wa Barakaatuhu Brother Hamza
Rectify the following typograhical error.
Imagine 500 years from now a group of futuristic archaeologists where(ACTUALLY WERE) to start digging in on the moon only to find parts of a car and a bus.
Assalamu 'Alaikum Brother
Another one:
I clarified this further during the question and answer session by adding that we humans can design things which are more complex then(ACTUALLY THAN) ourselves, computers being one of them.
As-salaamu alaykum Muhammad: JazakAllahkhair for the typos, corrections made.
Hamza Tzortzis: "I concluded this response by saying that even if we were to apply this type of question to every attempt at explaining the explanation, we would end up with an infinite regress of explanations. And an infinite regress of explanations would defeat the whole purpose of science in the first place, which is to provide an explanation!"
Abu Maryam:
This similar to children keep asking "Why? Why Why?" to everything and you cannot explain any further, and hit the proverbial brick wall, eventually concluding "that is how things are", or "that is how Allaah made it".
for e.g. Why do eat? - to live, Why do we live, - so you do not die? why do die? so....
because that is how Allaah made it!
It is amazing that children have this inquisitive nature in them when questioning until you cannot answer - the adult either, gets angry, or the wise one uses Islaam by which the child is satisfied!
It's also amazing how a child naturally accepts and is appeased by an answer that is linked back to a "thinking entity" whilst rejecting the notion of "this is how things are" i.e. implying coincidence, neutrality, don't know or leaving a loose string for them!
It does not matter if you say things happen because of a monkey, human, alien or Allaah. The fact you you linked back to a intellectual entity - that is good enough for them. How come people who are Professors, PHDers cannot follow basic rational deduction to our reality??
For me truth must be a concept accessible to every soul and every type of intellect from day mankind was placed on earth.
The truth must be in essence is so clear and fathomable,only an insane person cannot grasp it (hence their exemption of accountability in the sight of the The Creator).
Creation (yourself, universe and your reality, cause and effect) is truth because every human witnesses this everyday and cannot escape it (unless you are blind or insane) and in their intellect they know 100% it must have come from something that has an intellect, a will and a plan for it. The Creation fact and the teleological fact has been established the day a baby opens its eyes coming out from the womb and until he/she dies! One day he/she will really look at the world and ponder the fundamental question, in lines of "How did all happen?". The most simple, best and fathomable explanation is self-evidently is something made me and everything I see. You can then conclude it must be something intelligent and more powerful than anything you can ever know.
In fact it brings back a fond dialogue... 2 years ago, this very same question I asked my manager, a computer scientist, "How did all happen?" He answered in a child-like manner with succinctness and veracity "It can't just happen, when I look at it, something must have made it!"
Atheistic theories can never be true because they are flawed and cannot answer holistically(1). For e.g. Evolution (macro-evolution) can never be true because it has not been witnessed by anyone and they are trying to find evidence for it to confirm it 100%! Not only that this has been only discovered only about 100 odd years ago. Next time ask the modern day Atheist - "If you lived before Darwin's theory, what would you have believed in as "the cause" of your existence?" THEY WILL HIT THE PROVERBIAL BRICK WALL - try that out brothers and sisters!
Evolution explains "the how it happen" leaving out "why it happened" and "what caused it"
Similar to the investigation when a person dies or in a murder scene to find the killer - we ask these 3 questions on our demise yet we fail to ask and ponder them on our arrival and journey in life!
The truth knocks the brains out of falsehood!
May Allaah bless us all with knowledge and wisdom to make it easy for us to convey His message.
Wow - Jazakallahu khairan for moderating and putting up my comment so fast - and it is midnight!!
Go to sleep brother Hamza - your body has rights over you!
Get some rest so you're fresh for the intellectual battles ahead! : )
Great to see that you are developing and 'fine-tuning' your repertoire of answers to the status of irrefutable - you'd hate it if I used the word 'evolving' for obvious reasons ; ). Mashallah, May Allaah increase you in more knowledge and wisdom to outwit the falsehood. May Allaah make you a companion of The Final Messenger (pbuh) in the next world.
Please remember me in your du'as
...you know what, I better get to sleep too! I-)
Assalaamu alaikum brother,
May Allaah bless you and all our Muslim Community.
Allah(swt) may definitely satisfy of your immaculate work.
Please upload this debate soon.
Assalamulaikum,
Excellent job, brother Tzortzis. Professor Blackburn's argument was interesting though - i.e. the design argument being a flawed analogy.
Salaam Kais,
You've got a point. Allah (swt) has granted us intuitive abilities which allow us to conclude that He exists. However, the problem is, in this day, there are so many conflicting ideologies and beliefs which have gained dominance in this world, that the masses are being misled.
Our intuitive abilities as humans has long been corrupted by the various negative forms of media and the stunting of spiritual development. So now, many people aren't even aware of the truths of Islam and its way of life.
Thus, educated Muslims who understand these ideologies and ways of thinking and most importantly, Islam, need to reach out and open the minds of those subjected to them.
Salaam
as for the idea of causality out of time is absurd, i think it can be solved by a simple example. a computer programmer and a program. the program time starts with the double click i.e. execution time ie a double click. so basically the first cause was the cause for the beginning of time. also a program would be stupid to ask who programmed the programmer. and how come the programmer is not allocated in memory and stuff.
as a response for people who came with the question what if you're wrong? well to know if you're right or wrong you need to go to the creator of the universe in this case god, so basically you're right and can never be wrong :). an atheist on the other hand will be wrong. it's like knowing whether the answer to an exam is true or false, you ask the maker of the exam in this case the teacher, you dont ask a student coz he might be wrong.
these are all my thoughts and allah knows best.
Just one cursory note on point that cause and effect is meaningless outside time. It's meaningless because we are unable to discern which is the cause and which is the effect because we dont have time as an entity. It does not imply cause and effect does not exist outside the realm of time.
In fact there are numerous evidences of existence of the Creator and we do not have to go deep into philosophical arguments to find and understand them. F. Gulen (modern islamic thinker) explains them in the following way:
"People usually confuse the non-acceptance of something's existence with the acceptance of its non-existence. While the former is only a negation or a rejection, the latter is a judgment needing proof. No one has ever proven, and cannot prove, God's non-existence. In contrast, countless arguments prove His existence."
Here I will state only some of the arguments (I have excluded many more: Things are finite, Life is a riddle, Finality in Creation, Orderliness in creation, Artistry in creation, Countenance, The Qur'an and other Scriptures, The Prophets)
• Creation is contingent. In other words, it is equally possible for something to exist or not to exist. Also, it is possible for something to come into existence at any time, place, and form, and with any character. No thing or person has any role in determining how, when, or where it comes into existence, or what character and features it will have. Some power has to choose. This power must be infinite, and have absolute will and all-comprehensive knowledge. Necessarily, this power is God.
• Mercy and providence. All living and non-living beings are in continuous need of many things, even a small portion of which they cannot supply by themselves. For example, the universe's operation and maintenance demand the existence of such universal laws as growth, reproduction, gravitation, and repulsion. However, these "natural" laws have no external, visible, or material existence; their existence is completely nominal. How can something that exists only nominally, which has no knowledge and consciousness, be responsible for a miraculous creation requiring absolute knowledge and wisdom? How can it have the power of choice and preference? So, one who has all these attributes has established these natural laws and uses them to veil His operations for a certain purpose.
Plants require air, water, heat, and light. But they can obtain none of these on their own. Our needs are infinite. Fortunately, all of our essential needs, from the very beginning of our earthly existence to our death, are met by someone beyond our own capacity and intervention. We enter this world and find everything prepared to meet our all sense, intellectual, and spiritual needs. This clearly shows that one who is infinitely merciful and knowledgeable provides for all created beings in the most extraordinary way, and causes all things to collaborate to that end.
• Mutual helping. As mentioned above, everything in the universe helps everything else. This mutual helping is so comprehensive that, for example, just as almost all things (including air, water, fire, soil, the sun and sky) help us in the most extraordinarily prearranged manner, so do bodily cells, members, and systems cooperate to keep us alive. Soil, air, water, heat, and bacteria cooperate to keep plants alive. This cooperation and mutual helping, observed among unconscious beings but requiring knowledge and deliberate purpose, show the existence of one who arranges them in that miraculous way.
Evidences for existence of God continue..
• Cleanliness. Until we began over-polluting our air, water, and land, the natural world was cleansed and purified continually. Even now, it preserves its original purity in many regions where the ways of modern civilization have not yet taken hold. Have you ever wondered why nature is so clean, why forests are so clean although many animals die there every day? Have you ever considered that if all flies born in a single summer were to survive, our planet would be covered with layers of fly bodies? Have you ever noticed that nothing is wasted in nature? Every death is the beginning of a new birth. For example, a dead body decomposes and is integrated into the ground. Elements die and are revived in plants; plants die in animal and human stomachs and are promoted to the higher rank of life.
• Divine teaching and directing. To direct our lives and learn what is good or bad for us takes at least 15 years. However, many animals acquire this knowledge soon after their birth. A duckling can swim as soon as it hatches. Ants start to dig nests in the ground when they leave their cocoons. Bees and spiders quickly learn how to make their honeycombs and webs, respectively, which are such marvels that we cannot produce them. Who teaches young eels born in the Atlantic Ocean to find their way to their ancestral home in the Pacific Ocean? The birds' migration is still a mystery. How can you explain such astounding facts other than by attributing them to the teaching or directing of one who knows everything and has arranged the universe and its inhabitants in such a way that they can direct their lives?
• The spirit and the conscience. Despite enormous scientific advances, we cannot explain life. Life is the gift of the Ever-Living One, Who "breathes" a spirit into each embryo. Our ignorance of the spirit's nature and its relation with the body does not negate its existence. The spirit is sent to the world to be perfected and acquire a state appropriate for the other life. Our conscience is the center of our inclinations toward right and wrong. Everybody feels this conscience on some occasions. So, the spirit and conscience are strong arguments for the existence of One God.
• Our innate dispositions and history. We are innately disposed to good and beauty, and adverse to evil and ugliness. We also are inclined to virtues and moral values. Unless corrupted by external factors and conditions, we seek the good and moral values, which are universal. The values we seek naturally are the same virtues and morality promulgated by all Divine inspired religions. As history witnesses, humanity has never lived without a religion. Just as no system has superseded religion in human life, the Prophets and religious people always have been most influential people and left indelible marks on human history. This is another irrefutable proof for the existence of the One God.
• Human intuition. We feel many intuitions and emotions, which are a sort of message from immaterial realms. Among them, the intuition of eternity arouses in us a desire for eternity, which we seek to fulfill in many ways. However, it can be realized only through belief in and worship of the Eternal One Who inspired this intuition and desire in us. True human happiness lies in satisfying this desire for eternity.
• Consensus. If a few people who never tell the truth come and tell us at various times the same thing, we may believe them in the absence of any alternative. But when thousands of Prophets who never lied, and countless saints and believers who adopted truthfulness as a most essential pillar of belief, all agree that God exists, how can we reject their testimony for that of a few liars?
http://en.fgulen.com/questions-and-answers/1114-does-god-exist
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